Comments on: Fighting Over Small Change /blog/2004/06/fighting-over-small-change/ But I fear more for Muninn... Thu, 16 May 2013 14:30:52 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.2 By: Kerim Friedman /blog/2004/06/fighting-over-small-change/comment-page-1/#comment-223 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://muninn.net/blog/2004/06/fighting-over-small-change.html#comment-223 I remember one time, when I was traveling in Pakistan in 1990, I was haggling with a rickshaw driver over the price of a ride. I forget the numbers, but I bargained him down to about 60% of what he initially offered, which I assumed must be the correct price. He seemed very upset, but I thought it was just a show. Half way to where we were going he stopped and tried to raise the price, but I refused. When I got to where I was going I asked the others what they usually paid – it turns out it was the original price the driver had told me. After traveling for some time you get so fixated on not getting ripped off, you can overdo it. The difference between the full price and what I paid was probably just a few cents …

Also, you refer to the local language as the “Taiwanese dialect.” There are two problems with this. First of all, the difference between a “dialect” and a “language” is a highly political one, but linguistically it is usually based on the concept of “mutual intelligibility.” Since Mandarin and Hoklo are not mutually intelligible, it seems reasonable to refer to them as separate languages. They are, after all, much more distantly related than “languages” like Spanish and Italian. Secondly, the language itself is sometimes referred to as “Taiwanese”, but this has become problematic because the Hakka and Aborigine activists point out that their languages are equally “Taiwanese.” A solution has been to use the term “Hoklo”. You will see that the Taipei Times has begun to adopt this usage.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2004/06/08/2003174219

See here for more info:

http://hoklo.org/HokloCulture

]]>
By: Muninn /blog/2004/06/fighting-over-small-change/comment-page-1/#comment-224 Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000 http://muninn.net/blog/2004/06/fighting-over-small-change.html#comment-224 You are the man when it comes to issues like this Kerim, I look forward to reading your thesis! I totally agree with you that the dialect vs. language is a highly political question (if not exclusively so). As a speaker of the Norwegian dialect of Scandihoovian (in so far as we are mutually intelligible with Swedish and Danish) I have long found the dialect/language thing something of a fascinating (and often tragic) joke.

Starting to call something a “language” often (but obviously not always) coincides with the rise of nationalist movements, and is thus a political question as you say. Everything I have read so far suggests this is definitely the case with Taiwanese/Hoklo. As such, I’m happy to submit to using the term that insults the least number of people (which is probably a foolish way to measure it since using Hoklo probably insults the nationalistic sentiments of somewhere around a billion Chinese).

While not the case with Taiwanese (except of course for the various movements to establish a writing system for it), sometimes these “languages” are practically invented or mashed together from various idioms, as in Norway’s second official “language” called “ny norsk” or “new norwegian” and Indonesian during Dutch rule etc.

]]>